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 Judging and Scoring

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BMac

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Posts : 786
Join date : 2011-03-01
Age : 25
Location : Ottawa, Canada

Wrestler Stats
IWF Record: 24-7-2
Alignment: Face

PostSubject: Judging and Scoring   Sun May 29, 2011 6:41 pm

Alright, I just have a few things I'd like to talk about, as far as voting and such goes.

I want to thank everyone for getting your votes in since we've started here. We continuously get more and mpore votes each week, and we are grateful.

However, recently, there has been slight concern over people voting biased, or voting after not reading RPs. We're not accusing anyone of anything, we are just a little concerned.

As you know, you can score any way you want. Mostly, it is done on story, shoot, and entertainment factors. So basically, which ever one's entertained you the most.

With that in mind, we have developed a new system. Every time you send in your votes, you are required to list each RP written for every match. Beside each RP, we would like you to write a score. It can be out of 10, out of 100, out of 1000. It's up to you, just make sure you specify. After you have written all the RPs and your score for a match, write your winner at the bottom. Remember, it is only the BEST 2 That are scored.

So an example would look like this

Brandon Macdonald vs Corey Casey

BMac RP #1 - 8/10
BMac RP #2 - 8.5/10
CC RP #1 - 8/10
CC RP #2 - 7.5/10
CC RP #3 - 7.5/10

BMac is the winner, because his combined best two RPs have a higher score than Coreys combined best two.


See how that works? It makes it easier for everyone, because that way no one votes for someone who posted 10 RP's, just because they posted a lot of RPs. We're going to try this system out, and please follow it as best you can.

Thanks

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IWF Record: 24 Wins 7 Losses 2 Draws
Overall Pro Wrestling Record: 42 Wins 8 Losses 2 Draws

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IWF Record: Best Full Throttle Champion EVER!!!!!
Alignment: Face

PostSubject: Re: Judging and Scoring   Sun May 29, 2011 6:44 pm

I ain't gonna be part of your system!!!

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PostSubject: Re: Judging and Scoring   Sun May 29, 2011 7:02 pm

I'm sorry but when you use a system where everyone votes on rps instead of voting/judging being done by the staff you are always going to end up with people voting 'biased' or not reading all the rps. It's just the way things are. Especially here, where people do 4-6 rps ON AVERAGE.

It's one of the reasons I've rarely ever voted, I just don't have the time or patience to read through 40 rps a week, and if I did I would likely not even bother reading all the rps and just read one or two or just go "Oh I know this guy better so I'll just vote for him." Hell, even CHUCK, the guy who runs the character, admitted Chad shouldn't have won vs Bryant, and while I'm over that it's a clear point to what I'm saying. You are not going to be able to have a system like this and not get people just voting for who they're friends with or who they've known longer, it's just the way people are.

This is why in most feds there's a set group of people (usually staff) who choose the winners, and why I will always like that method better because if I have a group of people always voting, I can find out what they like and try to put my rps in a certain way, but when it's everyone voting everyone has different tastes and likes and it's impossible to please everyone all the time.
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IWF Record: Best Full Throttle Champion EVER!!!!!
Alignment: Face

PostSubject: Re: Judging and Scoring   Sun May 29, 2011 7:05 pm

Bryant ain't gonna be a part of your system!!

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BMac

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IWF Record: 24-7-2
Alignment: Face

PostSubject: Re: Judging and Scoring   Sun May 29, 2011 7:12 pm

While I understand where you are coming from Tanner, there's jsut a few things.

Mainly, right now, anyone can send us a name of a person, and say they read all of the RPs. With this new scoring sysstem, we'll be able to tell generally if you read the RPs or not. Like, lets say a guys gets a 9, 9, 10, 9, 8.5, then a 2 on one RP. Seems a little odd that ONE person thinks the RP is just awful, while everyone else thinks its amazing.

So yes, while there is still room for bias, this lowers it a bit. And as for the certain people as judges thing, we do sort of have that. There are a key group of us who vote every week, and then others who sometimes chip in. It's easier this way, because then no one feels left out.

Plus, how fun is it if you know how to please the judges? This way, you have to work extra hard, because you never know who's judging

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IWF Record: 24 Wins 7 Losses 2 Draws
Overall Pro Wrestling Record: 42 Wins 8 Losses 2 Draws

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PostSubject: Re: Judging and Scoring   Sun May 29, 2011 7:37 pm

What if the two combined scores make it a tie with the other two mayne?
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PostSubject: Re: Judging and Scoring   Sun May 29, 2011 9:49 pm

Yeah, but you could easily argue that people's scoring standards will have wild flux anyways. People tend to "over-point" even if it's anonymous, so they don't look like a jerk to the red-heads, or worry that it'll"get out" that Bryant gave me a 4 on my promo (THAT BASTARD!) and they don't want the drama.

I'd point lower than the average on some people because while they are writing a lot, they don't say much so it feels like filler to me, but to someone else they might think it's the greatest thing since sliced bread so I judge it at a 4 and the other guy judges it at a 9.5. Is it because of some bias? Might be, but it might just be that their style is something I don't like, so I knock off some points for it.

I was in an interfed tournament once, it was one person judging, and I sent a character that was akin to Gunther `round these parts. He wasn't there to be serious, he was a SNL sketch, and lots of people in the tournament HATED him, and my promos. But the person running the fed found them hilarious, and I made it to the Elite Eight before getting eliminated, but if it had been open voting I'd have been one and done, because the majority of the players were, "E-Fedding iz serius biznuss." Not that my promos were garbage, but they weren't what the majority were used to, or it wasn't what they thought a promo should be.

So a wide flux in scoring isn't an indicator of bias.

I like that you are trying to do something to even the playing field and make people at least score their votes, I just think it'll lessen people voting.
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PostSubject: Re: Judging and Scoring   Sun May 29, 2011 9:55 pm

Also pure "Highest Score of Two Wins" seems shady and forces people to write two promos so I write a promo that everyone in the world thinks is a TEN OMG JIZ JIZ JIZ JIZ, and my opponent writes two kinda okay ones because he/she has more time at 7's they get the win because 14>10. Unless you meant the Average of the two scores was higher, then disregard this post.
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BMac

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Wrestler Stats
IWF Record: 24-7-2
Alignment: Face

PostSubject: Re: Judging and Scoring   Sun May 29, 2011 10:01 pm

Well the two promo thing is something that has always been done. We have stressed from the beginning of the IWF that the BEST 2 RPs are scored. So it's always been that way.

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IWF Record: 24 Wins 7 Losses 2 Draws
Overall Pro Wrestling Record: 42 Wins 8 Losses 2 Draws

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PostSubject: Re: Judging and Scoring   Sun May 29, 2011 10:05 pm

So that automatically puts people that don't have the time to promo twice, or that like to focus everything on one promo, at a disadvantage? I'm not entirely sure that's fair.
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PostSubject: Re: Judging and Scoring   Sun May 29, 2011 10:06 pm

I get that, but like I said, if I drop a 9, and my opponent drops a 7, and it's "Best wins" and they do another promo and it's an 8, I'm still sitting on a 9, so I wouldn't feel the need to write another promo because my one promo was a better promo than both of their promos. Now I'd be forced to do another promo (needlessly) because they get a raw score higher for doing two promos.

What that would do is I could write two promos that are completely middle of the road, 5's and win over someone who wrote one really, really good piece scored at a 9. Is that fair?
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PostSubject: Re: Judging and Scoring   Sun May 29, 2011 10:10 pm

Quote :
Seems a little odd that ONE person thinks the RP is just awful, while everyone else thinks its amazing.

Mmm, no. Not really. People have different tastes, which was my point. While I think most of the people here are good writers, I really don't like a lot of people's promo styles here, so I would more than likely be that guy who scores a 2 to what "everyone else" is called "9.5 amazing." With soooo many different people voting you have so many different takes and it, to me, lessens the impact of the votes, because you can say "oh this wont happen or it'll make it better that it wont" but, especially if you're forcing voters to vote on EVERY RP... yeah, it's gonna happen.

Honestly, I had no clue this fed was run on an open voting system until after I'd had my first match, and if I had known that before I joined I probably wouldn't have joined. I know a few people who'd agree with that sentiment.


Titus Black wrote:
Also pure "Highest Score of Two Wins" seems shady and forces people to write two promos so I write a promo that everyone in the world thinks is a TEN OMG JIZ JIZ JIZ JIZ, and my opponent writes two kinda okay ones because he/she has more time at 7's they get the win because 14>10. Unless you meant the Average of the two scores was higher, then disregard this post.

Also, this. A thousand times this. And everything Mang and Kris have said after.

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PostSubject: Re: Judging and Scoring   Mon May 30, 2011 5:50 am

IMO this thread was needed. Look, I've never been much of a person to express my opinion, I normally just go with the flow, but I agree with a lot of stuff in this thread.

Firstly, what Bryant said about not having the patience to read through 40 RP's. I love reading a good roleplay, but my attention span is like from here - to here. I would be jumping for joy if I suddenly found the ability to sit and read through each individual RP, but unfortunately I don't.

It's not that I don't like reading RP's, but I just don't have the time or the competence to read everything. Don't get me wrong, if someone says, 'What did you think of my RP? If you haven't read it yet, could you go read it and give me feedback?' I'd do it in a heartbeat, and then give them a detailed feedback, because that's what people like to know about. Where they went wrong, what they did right, etc. This also ties in with the way matches go - people want to know why that particular person won over them, and what they can do next time to win.

Now I believe, as Titus said, that there should be a group of people to judge the RP's for each match. I'm not saying throw it all on the admins, but any one who would like to have a hand in determining the results. People who together can form a specific basis on what to judge an RP on, and how to score it.

As for best 2 RP's, that should be put to a vote IMO. Many people are divided on it.
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BMac

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IWF Record: 24-7-2
Alignment: Face

PostSubject: Re: Judging and Scoring   Mon May 30, 2011 7:15 am

Alright Shadow, my biggest problem with that is this. You say, along with Bryant and others, that you can't be bothered to read every single RP. That's fine, we don't force you to. However, if you are voting, you should be reading every single RP, because thats how it works. If you vote on winners, you should have read every single RP. That's our expectation, and so if that's already the case, than this should change nothing.

We are not asking more people to vote. We will still have the core people who always vote. However, we've stressed from the beginning that this is your fed too. So we want to give everyone the opportunity to vote, if they so choose to. I don't like picking people to be a group of voters, because it's too exclusive, and not fair to some of the other guys who want to read all of them and vote.

And I'm glad you at least have some sense about the scoring system. For a second there, I thought you were going to demand that one of the three admins immediately change our scoring system, without consulting the other two admins, and then immediately quit the fed when I told you that the most I could do is put it to a vote, because I'm not the only fed-head.

We wouldn't want anyone like THAT now would we?

Point is, i will talk to the other admins, and we'll talk about a vote to change it.

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IWF Record: 24 Wins 7 Losses 2 Draws
Overall Pro Wrestling Record: 42 Wins 8 Losses 2 Draws

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PostSubject: Re: Judging and Scoring   Mon May 30, 2011 10:55 am

Brandon Macdonald wrote:
Alright Shadow, my biggest problem with that is this. You say, along with Bryant and others, that you can't be bothered to read every single RP. That's fine, we don't force you to. However, if you are voting, you should be reading every single RP, because thats how it works. If you vote on winners, you should have read every single RP. That's our expectation, and so if that's already the case, than this should change nothing.

We are not asking more people to vote. We will still have the core people who always vote. However, we've stressed from the beginning that this is your fed too. So we want to give everyone the opportunity to vote, if they so choose to. I don't like picking people to be a group of voters, because it's too exclusive, and not fair to some of the other guys who want to read all of them and vote.

And I'm glad you at least have some sense about the scoring system. For a second there, I thought you were going to demand that one of the three admins immediately change our scoring system, without consulting the other two admins, and then immediately quit the fed when I told you that the most I could do is put it to a vote, because I'm not the only fed-head.

We wouldn't want anyone like THAT now would we?

Point is, i will talk to the other admins, and we'll talk about a vote to change it.

My two cents here.... Bran you and I have discussed this previously and I will make my opinion known here. No matter what way you build a voting or scoring syste it will always be flawed by bias and laziness. When you form stables and even just friendships in a place like this bias forms. In the scoring sense you will just score your boys higher than you otherwise would, you may not even realize you are doing it, but it happens. If there is just a straight vote you vote for your dude over others. We are human and shit like this happens, you can't eliminate it, you can just hope to lessen it. I do admit rampant bias is why I left FMW, and I don't really see it here much, though it seems to creep up from time to time.
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PostSubject: Re: Judging and Scoring   Mon May 30, 2011 11:00 am

so should we set up a rp judging team then? Ill judge unbiased.
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PostSubject: Re: Judging and Scoring   Mon May 30, 2011 12:42 pm

The judging team's a good idea IMO, I mean having people anons vote seems like it's a good idea, but then there's the fear that people are going to be bias with their picks, you know the type "If so and so picked so and so I'm going to pick so and so then." I'm gonna say it now, you can give the members freedom, that's great; However somewhere along the line there's gonna have to be some order. The voting team? That's a good place to start, because while it's good to get people involved there's sometimes some sketchy behavior behind it all. I know this is a long and drawn out example but the match with Chad Mason...

Yeah lol, I know, but we can't let a mistake like this happen again. I run an efed, and to be quite frankly, only the administrators should be able to vote. They have the power, they have to do that job, and they should have the say-so as to who wins and who doesn't. Having everyone vote is a big hassle, a VERY big one when you can't really trust anyone to make a solid choice without being called bias. A neverending cycle, nothing more. So I'm in favor of this judging team, on the count that it gives the admin's more power.

Gotta take charge sometimes you know?
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PostSubject: Re: Judging and Scoring   Mon May 30, 2011 4:16 pm

I have a solution to one of your probs.


[0-1500] words can only score max to 5


[2000-Infinity] can score max of 10


any number of words in between 1500 and 2000 dont count and is maxed out at 5 points. If it is only 1-3 words off of being 2000 there is an exception.
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PostSubject: Re: Judging and Scoring   Mon May 30, 2011 4:19 pm

It's a good idea to introduce a judging board or team, but who would be part of the team?

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PostSubject: Re: Judging and Scoring   Mon May 30, 2011 4:20 pm

Chuck/Chris/Rick


thats a pretty good judging team.
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Chuck Matthews
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IWF Record: 12-16-2
Alignment: Heel

PostSubject: Re: Judging and Scoring   Tue May 31, 2011 5:53 pm

I'll throw in my two bits.....because I partly own IWF, and damn it if I can't comment on stuff admin-related Razz

I sort of agree with everyone, actually. I do think the bias thing pokes its head in every now and again. However, I've never really thought it something that's exactly "A big problem."

On the flip side of that coin, I can't really argue with those who say "one time is one time too many" and I can think of three times off the top of my head where the voting didn't make sense to me at all.

That all being said...this is one of those things where it's not like I don't care...it's that it honestly doesn't affect me all that much...clearly, now that people think it a problem, I think it needs to be addressed.

Our system is flawed. Shit, our entire fed has its flaws. However, the beuty of IWF is that nothing is really "set." We have our ways, and we change them when we learn something doesn't work. Constant tweaking and fine-tuning until we get the formula right.

So: Brandon and Corey, in my absence, have tried forming a couple new ideas. I agree with them: We should change how we do things. Having anyone and everyone voting wasn't the greatest idea we've ever had. Like I said before: HOW we change that is really up to the other two guys. As for me personally, I like the team judging thing, except for two issues:

1. I hate getting more power than I feel I deserve, and as Connor said, the team voting does exactly that. Gives admins more power (though he thinks that a positive. I'm not a fan.)
2. What happens when we get a week like this week, when two of the usual writers need to take a week off? We're short a couple votes? Or we get a representative voter or something?

Not really "pressing issues" as much as they're "problems to tackle as they come about." So...right. Before I start rambling like an asshole, I'll just say "We're changing shit" and leave it to my fellow owners to sort this out, at least until I can understand more fully what's going on. They know more about this than I do.

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PostSubject: Re: Judging and Scoring   Tue May 31, 2011 6:15 pm

To solve the "what happens when writers are gone" stuff I say appoint maybe 2 or 3 consistent guys like Hawk, Myself, Shark, Deuce, and the like to be voters in your absence kind of thing. I think that may alleiviate some concern there otherwise I am all for the group of guys do the voting thing. Scoring each RP can be tedious when someone like Shark, Nick or myself writes 7 to 10 RPs in a big match. Just my two cents.
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PostSubject: Re: Judging and Scoring   Tue May 31, 2011 7:15 pm

I feel as though I should make a reply to this post, considering it's my fault this has even been brought up. I sent my votes to Brandon this week, using a 1000 point scoring system, the system I used to start 2010, before switching it up at the end of the year to a 1000 must system. I'll explain more later, but I think I should expose my scorecard to show off what I did to make this all happen. Considering I also wrote the show, with the help of my buddy BMac, you'll notice how my scoring affected the matches and not only that, but the segments of the show.



Death-Angel [vs] Chuck Matthews

Good finds away to beat evil = 500 Pts

A Brush with Death = 625 Pts

Killing fields = 250 Pts


Death-Angel = 750 Pts

Chuck Matthews = 625 Pts

Winner: Death-Angel


============================================================================


Brandon Macdonald [vs] Deuce Alexander
IWF Championship
Special Guest Referee: Ruben Ricardo Leon
Ruben's Law Match


HoF DA RP #1 = 670 Pts

Game Over? = 820 Pts

HoF DA RP #2 = 770 Pts

Hof DA RP #3 = 700 Pts

Game Over? Part 2 = 900 Pts

AN ALISON WILLIAMS ORIGINAL ROLEPLAY BITCHES! = 600 Pts = 60 Bonus Pts

HoF DA RP #4 = 150 Pts

Never piss off an sleeping monster = 500 Pts = 50 Bonus Pts

The Return of the Sexual One = 200 Pts = 20 Bonus Pts


Deuce Alexander = 2290 Pts Overall = 1470 Pts

Brandon Macdonald = 1850 Pts Overall = 1850 Pts

Winner: Brandon Macdonald


Match Advantage: Deuce Alexander

============================================================================


Titus Black & Bryant Tanner [vs] Chad Mason & TK Jones [vs] Darren Moore & Horcrux Lave w/ Corey Casey
Spin to Win Match

HOF RP1 = 350 Pts

Random Pot Shots At Nick Ridicule and Others = 660 Pts

School's in for Summer.= 420 Pts


Titus Black & Bryant Tanner = 1080 Pts

Darren Moore & Horcrux Lave = 350 Pts

Chad Mason & TK Jones = 0 Pts

Winners: Titus Black & Bryant Tanner

Note: Black and Tan should be put over in this match. They should dominate.


============================================================================


Sean O'Rourke [vs] Vincent Van Rose w/ Corey Casey
High Impact #1 Contender
Spin to Win Match

Ashes to Ashes = 650 Pts

....Dust To Dust = 500 Pts

Winner: Vincent Van Rose


============================================================================


Libra [vs] The Ninja
Spin to Win Match

The way of the Ninja = 10 Pts

Winner: Ninja


============================================================================


Pancake Pete [vs] Astro [vs] Alex Steele [vs] Cole Tanner
Spin to Win Match

POTATO CRISP = 150 Pts

Winner: Astro





As I mentioned, I judged based on the 1000 point scale that I used back in the start of 2010. I used to use a 100 point scale, but RP's got so good that 100 points was way too limited. I also think using a 10 point scale as an example wasn't the best idea, but maybe this will help. Had I used the 1000 point must scale, all the best RP's from the matches, would have gotten a mandatory 1000 points, with the rest judged based on that scale. So hard to explain, but under the 1000 point must system, Chuck would have won in the main event, for having written the best RP of that match. His RP score would have went from 625 to 1000, because he wrote the best RP for the match, so he receives the maximum score.

For the Brandon Macdonald versus Dan Alexander match, you can see that Dan actually outscored Brandon, Alison, DA, AND Gunther! He was able to outscore Brandon by almost 500 points, and BMac had help. If you go back and read the match, you can see where my voting has reflected on the match that was written. Dan would have won the match if it wasn't best 2 RP's scored. But since it was best two, plus the bonus points for the help, he was able to outscore the two best RP's from Dan.

Dan wins the war, but he's DQed and doesn't win the match.


The point is, vvoting with scores not only shows that you took the time to actually read the RP's and give an honest unbiased opinion.

Just look at the post Titus made, he admitted that he was going to be a biased judge. He stated that he only likes certain styles and would score the RP styles he liked, more than other styles, just because it was his personal preference.

Judges can't be biased at all. You can't have one certain style you like, then shit on everything else just because it doesn't play to what you enjoy. I read every RP expecting nothing, with an open mind, so that I could judge as fairly as I possibly could. Anything else isn't truly judging. Picking a name isn't judging RP's. It's not scoring RP's like it says on the card. Best 2 RP's are score, yet no one was actually scoring the RP's.

I understand people can't be bothered to sit for three hours reading all the RP's, then scoring them just so things are legit. But you also don't have to be a judge. I'm happy to judge, because for some reason I love the game. Despite all the fake ass people I've come across, I do love the game, I have respect for the game, and I want it to be done right.

If I can vote, I'll vote, and I'll do it to the best of my abilities. If I write the show, I'll do it to the best of my abilities. It's time for the admin here, to start doing things to the best of their abilities. I hate to call you guys out, because it always seems to cause an uproar, but I'm just speaking truth.

As for scoring, anyone can create their own scoring scale. So many people are trying to turn this into a problem post, when in reality, if you want to be a judge, then do it! Make a scoring scale and stick to it or don't be a judge.

That's my take on this situation. I didn't think scoring RP's would cause so many problems, but it seems in this fed I can't even take a piss without someone jumping on my back. I'm going to keep scoring RP's the way I score RP's. If you don't want me to be a judge, I wont be a judge.

This place sure does have some problems. It makes me laugh. I ran NLWF for two years without anything like the bullshit I've seen in only two weeks here. It's so awesome to watch you guys drown, but I really am here to help. Maybe now you understand all the things I did not just in front of you, but also behind the scenes. You guys were ingrates, seriously, the fact that you proved it, the fact that you denied it, you know who you are. But now that you've got a small taste of what I did, maybe I'll finally get the props I deserve, instead of the bullshit I've gotten.

I really am here to make this a better fed. Even though a majority of you felt the need to attack me following what happened, I really have no hard feelings towards any of you. Some of you I consider friends, a lot of you I couldn't care less about because you're backstabbing fakes. But in the end, when it all comes down to it, I'm part of this fed for the same reason anyone else is, to have a good time, to write RP's to the best of my ability, and to watch my character kick the shit out of all of you.

Hope this helps.
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PostSubject: Re: Judging and Scoring   Tue May 31, 2011 9:25 pm

Nick Ridicule wrote:

This place sure does have some problems. It makes me laugh. I ran NLWF for two years without anything like the bullshit I've seen in only two weeks here. It's so awesome to watch you guys drown, but I really am here to help. Maybe now you understand all the things I did not just in front of you, but also behind the scenes. You guys were ingrates, seriously, the fact that you proved it, the fact that you denied it, you know who you are. But now that you've got a small taste of what I did, maybe I'll finally get the props I deserve, instead of the bullshit I've gotten.

I really am here to make this a better fed. Even though a majority of you felt the need to attack me following what happened, I really have no hard feelings towards any of you. Some of you I consider friends, a lot of you I couldn't care less about because you're backstabbing fakes. But in the end, when it all comes down to it, I'm part of this fed for the same reason anyone else is, to have a good time, to write RP's to the best of my ability, and to watch my character kick the shit out of all of you.


lol i think IWF got insulted by Nick Ridicule. LOLWUT


Last edited by Darren Moore on Tue May 31, 2011 9:26 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Colour issue.)
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